Hope this doesn't ruffle any feathers

In order for a church today to be 'the church we read about in the New Testament', what would have to be true about:

a. its date of establishment

b. its form of worship

c. its manner of organization

d. its name

e. what it teaches concerning salvation / its terms of entrance

f. its singularity or 'number'

g. its non-denomination character

h. its program of work

i. its role is a person's salvation

Rather than hit each point I think, also as this will be a interview, I will collate my answers as a general description of what can be considered a 'New Testament' church, and then if required go back to any specific points I may have missed. 

This church will accept the inspiration of all scripture, (2 Tim 3:16-17). That all that God has revealed there is of the Holy Spirit, (1 Cor 2:10) and is inspired in word and thought. (1 Cor 2:13) It has also been given by the revelation of Jesus Christ. (Gal 1:11-12) Therefore when the Church is speaking forth scripturally it is speaking the thoughts of God. (1 Pet 4:11)

It also knows that as in 2 Jn 9

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

The church appeals to the scriptures for its authoritisation for its practices. It affirms that the New Testament constitutes a complete system, for all ages and circumstances. 

Jesus promised to build His church. (Matt 16:18) If you liken it to a building, Jesus is the architect, He has the blueprints. The church is to be structured or built according to His divine pattern. (Heb 8:1-5)

This divine pattern is for example laid out in Phil 1.1,

 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

With the bishops and deacons qualifications laid out in Titus 1:5-9 & 1 Tim 3:1-13. So the church is made up of the saints with its bishops(elders if you will) and deacons. This is the only organisation known to the church, none larger or smaller. With its collective in any location the only one unit of function. It is not a social group nor any charitable institution, though can be both outgoing and loving, it is a church above all else. Also, as such an entity is independent and autonomous. Such things as conferences or synods are unscriptural in nature. Each local collective is to be independent and self governing. 

It is to worship in Spirit and in truth. (John 4:24) Spirit in its manner, truth in its application. In scripture we see five acts, the Lord's Supper, fellowship, preaching, prayer and singing. (Acts 2:42, Col 3:16, Eph 5:19) (as a side point notice singing, not playing) Done on the Lord's day when the church was to assemble, and done on each Lord's day with no excuses.

It's function is to do the work of the church. First and foremost it is to preach and teach the gospel, at home and where it can abroad. (Phil 1:3-5, 4:15-18) Second it is to edify the saints in its assembly.  (Acts 13:1, Eph 4:11-16, Rom 1:8-17) Thirdly, it is relieve the needs of its own needy members. (Acts 6:1-6, 1 Tim 5:9-10,16) 

As far as to a) the date of its establishment, that is not relevant as God has no grandchildren, each members faith is their own, and we are not to occupy ourselves with genealogies. (1 Tim 1:4)

D) it should not glorify man, so not named after its pastor, or a saint, but if it relates to what it does, say x town gospel hall, is fine for example. By the way slapping 'Christ' on it doesn't make it anything more or less than it is, remember the Mormons put Jesus Christ in big print in their title and you can't tell me they follow Him. 

I) It is Christ who saves not the organisation. But to the Mormons for this, you are not only saved if you are saved by them in their church, no we have as in Ephesians 4:5

One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

That is how we get saved, not by the institution who performed it. 

Well lets see if anything relevant comes out of this

Tonight they have an interview with Keith Sisman from Cambridge, England.  Mr. Sisman has written a book entitled 'Traces of the Kingdom.'

So tonight is all about the Church of Christ, and not really theological or biblical study but from the following question feel free to post any answers you may have in the comments section, and I will try to come up with some answers later this evening. 

In order for a church today to be 'the church we read about in the New Testament', what would have to be true about:

a. its date of establishment

b. its form of worship

c. its manner of organization

d. its name

e. what it teaches concerning salvation / its terms of entrance

f. its singularity or 'number'

g. its non-denomination character

h. its program of work

i. its role is a person's salvation

My answers 'hopefully to the questions asked'

1.  Comment on these things that need to be evidenced in every parent's life:

a. Strong faith

b. Unwavering sense of right and wrong

c. Good teaching skills

d. Willing to administer discipline

 

Lets take these as a whole for there are many parenting verses and lets see how these may help to raise our children 'in the nurture and admonition of The Lord.'

Genesis 18:19

For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the Lord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

We are to keep 'His way' knowing His Law, and 'do justice and judgment' and so exercise sound discipline. 

Deuteronomy 4:9

Only take heed to thyself, and keep thy soul diligently, lest thou forget the things which thine eyes have seen, and lest they depart from thy heart all the days of thy life:but teach them thy sons, and thy sons 'sons;

This would point to having the base of knowledge of God ( or faith you may say) and then pass it on to the next generation. 

Deuteronomy 6:7 (repeated virtually in 11:19)

And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.

This continues on from the last verse but also into the scope that it is as a part of a daily conversation, the life teaches as much as the content of the daily devotionals. 

Psalms 78:4

We will not hide them from their children,

shewing to the generation to come

the praises of the Lord, and his strength,

and his wonderful works that he hath done.

Sharing with your children the trails and triumphs, the prayers and the praise, so they can see that He guides in the sunshine and through the storms. 

Proverbs 19:18

Chasten thy son while there is hope,

and let not thy soul spare for his crying.

This is one of discipline, it is not of judgment, for that is usually of revenge, but correction with the goal of restoration in mind. 

Proverbs 22:6

Train up a child in the way he should go:

and when he is old, he will not depart from it.

It is for now, for then may well be too late, also it is one that comes from following so remember where you're leading them. 

Proverbs 29:17

Correct thy son, and he shall give thee rest;

yea, he shall give delight unto thy soul.

I've already mentioned about the judgment/correction distinctive, but let me also add it is so they will delight in you, not merely fear you, and you'll delight in them rather than be shameful of them. 

2 Timothy 3:15

And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

This is the ultimate goal, not that they will be in good relation with you but more importantly with their Father in Heaven, so make sure we 'let your conversation be as it becomes the gospel of Christ:' (phil 1.27)

2.  Comment on these important areas of influence with children:

a. 'Limit the distance' (spend time with your kids)

b. Start early with spiritual training (how early?)

c. Talk often (what kind of subjects?)

d. Do specific things to establish a spiritual environment in your home (what kind of things?)

I first will say, these may be expressions that have a particular to the context they are asked in, but this Englishman will have a go, from how he perceives them. 

You can't lead your family from your workplace, or let the parenting be adequately outsourced.

Here's a scary quote from Martin Luther. "I am much afraid that schools will prove to be the great gates of hell unless they diligently labor in explaining the Holy Scriptures, engraving them in the hearts of youth. I advise no one to place his child where the Scriptures do not reign paramount. Every institution in which men are not increasingly occupied with the Word of God must become corrupt."

As far as how early, going back to Timothy his mother and grandmother, from his youth taught him the Holy Scripture. 

I mentioned earlier how your life in every aspect of life is one of teaching either by word or practice. 

What kind of things can we do, study the word as a family, pray together as such a situation arises for it, and bring God into conversations about say, the news, the school lessons, the workplace, the finances, I'm sure there is a whole lot more, even about the households friendships, and let them know they are prayed for and can mention things that you can bring to The Lord. 

It's children tonight

So here are tonight's questions, and parenting discussions are not usually my favourite thing, give me theology anyday, but there you go. Feel free to comment with any answers that come to your mind.

1.  Comment on these things that need to be evidenced in every parent's life:

a. Strong faith

b. Unwavering sense of right and wrong

c. Good teaching skills

d. Willing to administer discipline

 

2.  Comment on these important areas of influence with children:

a. 'Limit the distance' (spend time with your kids)

b. Start early with spiritual training (how early?)

c. Talk often (what kind of subjects?)

d. Do specific things to establish a spiritual environment in your home (what kind of things?)

I hope this isn't a complaint

But it may well be.

Just a short thought on listening back to it. I could be wrong but my contribution was the only one with a gospel element. If you are going to point out sin, shouldn't you point to the cross as well. 

That should be the goal, to know nothing else amoung you save Christ and Him crucified. That is the basis of our relationship with Him. 

So maybe I was wrong

1.  How would you prove that murmuring is a sin?

When I got this weeks questions I thought it was nothing much, but then I read. 

1 Corinthians 10:10

Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.

So it's something that can attract God's judgment, but is it sin. 

We can complain about unrighteousness and injustice, but murmuring isn't that is it. It is to grumble, express discontent, you could say it's the selfish whining 'that's it not going my way.' And that would be sin, in that it questions God's goodness or gracious actions to us (that's He holding back something) and to others (that they don't deserve that). Like children looking at their dinner plate disapprovingly, ignoring the fact he is getting it for nothing, and then when the sibling's plate comes, that he's got more of the pie than me. (Which would be coveting, the 10th commandment).

2.  In what circumstances are we tempted to murmur?

The role God has given us, the content of the sermon, the joke the usher made during the notices, the standard of the singing, and it can really get petty, our parking space, the biscuits on offer with the coffee, the colour of the carpet, the warmth of the greeting. (Guess what, the worship meeting is not about you, so get over yourself)

Outside the church, the job we have, our spouse, the government, the local school, park, supermarket, (and Britain's favorite) the weather and our sports team or the rotten officiating. 

3.  Does murmuring reveal any other sins that might be present in our lives?

It may lead to things like

-  discouragement then think God doesn't love me

-  distraction then I don't need to go and serve my brother/sister today

-  fear then leading not to wisdom, but to anger at Him and His judgment.

-  self-pity leading to a lack of worship or prayer to God. 

-  self-hatred leading to a sense that morality isn't important.

-  or the overwhelming feeling that who you are doesn’t matter. And so do others so I won't witness of Him or attend His church cos I don't add anything. 

4.  What effect, if any, does murmuring have on those around us?

They will see that the God you follow can't be anyone worth knowing, cos you're running Him down to them. Like why would I shop at a store that I run down its products, its staff and so on, if you do that about your church, why would anyone go in.

Also it may cause the results that happened in you, happen to them, that they will pity themselves, or become discouraged in your presence, then following on to the other results. 

5.  How can we prevent murmuring?

Take what God has given you and be glad. As the song goes 'count your many blessings, count them one by one, and it will amaze what The Lord has done. 

One exercise you could do is after a prayer of confession. Do a prayer where you don't ask for anything, just focusing on who He is and has done and how He has blest you. 

In Him you live and move and have your being, from him you get every breath you have. For you the Son of God who loved me, gave Himself for me. In Him we have a hope that is steadfast and sure, held up in Heaven for us, where rust can't destroy or thieves steal. And that's just for starters. 

Tonight's questions

Feel free to post me any suggestions to answers to these. I must though admit, I am not sure this will be the most applicable or insightful study. 

1.  How would you prove that murmuring is a sin?

2.  In what circumstances are we tempted to murmur?

3.  Does murmuring reveal any other sins that might be present in our lives?

4.  What effect, if any, does murmuring have on those around us?

5.  How can we prevent murmuring?

My answers

How would you explain these events in the life of Jesus?  Did He do wrong?

Not sure if this is meant as a question but I think it needs an answer. As if He did this invalidates the cross as He would not have been an acceptable sacrifice. But the bible makes the following comments

Hebrews 4:15

For we do not have a high priest (Christ) who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Hebrews 7:26

For it was indeed fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, unstained, separated from sinners, and exalted above the heavens.

2 Corinthians 5:21

For our sake he(God) made him(Jesus) to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.

1 Peter 2:22

He(Jesus) committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.

1 John 3:5

You know that he(Christ) appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin.

Isaiah 53:9

I will appoint evil men for His burial and rich men for His death, because He committed no lawlessness, nor was deceit found in His mouth.

Romans 5:18-19

Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's (Christ's) obedience the many will be made righteous.

And we have the confessions of two men who carried out the judgment, one before and another the death of the cross

John 18:38

Pilate said to him, “What is truth?”

After he had said this, he went back outside to the Jews and told them, “I find no guilt in him.

Luke 23:47

Now when the centurion saw what had taken place, he praised God, saying, “Certainly this man was innocent!”

But let’s just say for the sake of argument that none of the following explanations are persuasive (and we ignore the fact that Jesus, being fully God, a priori could not sin). Here’s the better question: If the Bible, God’s Word, tells us that Jesus did not sin (as I think it clearly does) who are we to say that he actually did sin? The question is this: Is God the judge of what is sin, or are we? Clearly, God is the judge of what is sinful. So if God claims Jesus did not sin I will take his word for it. 

In conclusion, I don’t think that if any of the “sins” listed qualify as sin for the reasons I will give I don't think they do, and even if we thought they did, we should trust what God considers to be sin more than our own personal preferences or culturally shaped perceptions.

(from last week . . .)

a. In the way He spoke to His mother (John 2:4)

It was normal for Jews, speaking to women, to call them by the name of their sex. Mt 15:28, Lk 13:12, Jn 4:21. Saying that in saying 'woman' not 'mother', was to signify to her that in this instance He did not own her as his mother, one with authority over Him. Hence the next words, 'what does this have to do with me?', showing both displeasure, but more that she had no right upon Him in this thing. His duty is not to His mother but to His Father. Also she was not to prescribe the timing of His public ministry, 'My hour has not yet come.', for in this life she, and we, bend to His will not Him to hers/ours. 

b. When He destroyed swine not belonging to Him (Matthew 8:28-34)

One, this was the demon's request, not His decision. Two, what is a herd of pigs doing in Isreal. Also (Ps 24:1) if 'the earth is the Lord's and everything in it' then it's His property as well, so it's not wanton damage if that's what you thought. 

To me it shows His power to heal and His power to destroy. 

c. When He told His brothers He was not going the Feast, but then went (John 7:1-9)

There is a disputed word, yet, in verse 8. It tells me that He wanted to go up to it to teach, not to show Himself to the world. Again it is a case of, it's in line with My will not yours (like a).

d. Did He actually deny being God? (Mark10:17-18)

He was not denying that He was God, He was trying to get the young man to realise that He was more than merely good or a teacher, but was far more, namely God. 

Also He openly told the woman at the well, and the blind man of John 9, who He was, not to mention the disciples, or those who would arrest and try Him, amoung others. Also throw in the I AMs and the opportunities were plentiful for people to know who He is. 

(some additional issues to consider . ., .

e) He called Gentiles “dogs” (Matthew 15:26,27)

Again a Jewish term of phrase at the time, unfortunate as it may be, also doesn't the woman use the term right back at Him. 

Jesus was saying the gospel and its benefits were for the Jew first and then the Gentile, and this lady went on to add that she would be happy with the smallest blessing whilst the Jews got to hear about it, the crumb as it were falling from the child's lap. 

f) He started a violent incident with a whip in the temple. (John 2:14,15) 

He drove them out yes, but no account that they were struck. Also a single obscure man with a bunch of small cords, could with little trouble clear a whole temple court of merchants and their animals. Maybe he was fulfilling the prophecy 

Malachi 3:1-3

Chapter 3

 “Behold, I send my messenger, and he will prepare the way before me. And the Lord whom you seek will suddenly come to his temple; and the messenger of the covenant in whom you delight, behold, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. But who can endure the day of his coming, and who can stand when he appears? For he is like a refiner's fire and like fullers 'soap. He will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, and they will bring offerings in righteousness to the Lord.

g) He taught parents to ‘hate’ their children. (John 14:26)

Sorry it's Luke, and is a hyperbole I think, you are to love Me in a way that in comparison that your love for your relatives can seem like hatred in comparison. 

h) He hung out in the temple knowing his parents would be worried about him, and didn’t care. (Luke 2:42-52)

He is 12 by the way, an adult in Jewish culture, so can act independently, and once they come He submits to them. 

(Notice that He sits with them teaching them, not sat at their feet learning from them, who taught the Law. So who do you think knew the law in this case? Just a thought)

i) He was accused of being a glutton and a drunkard. (Matthew 11:19) 

Being accused of something is not the same as having done it. I think this is a fallacy of guilt by association. 

j) Not washing hands before eating (Matthew 15:2)

This is ceremonial washing, an addition of the Talmud, not found in the 613 laws of the pentetuch, as pointed out by the following verse, which stated it was 'the traditions of the elders'. 

Tonight's questions

Continuing from last where they discussed misconceptions about Jesus, tonight they answer the issue of if He was sinless or not. 

So here they are, if you have any comments about them feel free to make them. 

How would you explain these events in the life of Jesus?  Did He do wrong?

(from last week . . .)

a. In the way He spoke to His mother (John 2:4)

b. When He destroyed swine not belonging to Him (Matthew 8:28-34)

c. When He told His brothers He was not going the Feast, but then went (John 7:1-9)

d. Did He actually deny being God? (Mark10:17-18)

(some additional issues to consider . ., .

e) He called Gentiles “dogs” (Matthew 15:26,27)

f) He started a violent incident with a whip in the temple. (John 2:14,15) 

g) He taught parents to ‘hate’ their children. (John 14:26)

h) He hung out in the temple knowing his parents would be worried about him, and didn’t care. (Luke 2:42-52)

i) He was accused of being a glutton and a drunkard. (Matthew 11:19) 

j) Not washing hands before eating (Matthew 15:2)

I will post my answer this evening, (its 6:40 pm here in the uk). The show is on in about 8 and a half hours. Obviously I'll be asleep then. 

Ok what is vbs

Vbs is the virtual bible study, a online radio/video show which becomes a podcast. Ran by the collegevue Church of Christ. And no, I am not a member, and sometimes my views puzzle, on one level my Englishness can throw them, also I differ from them in that I have a anabaptist Calvinist tendency. 

I as an Englishman podcast it, but I do try to reply to them by email and these I will post here also, and if I feel it is needed also post views on the show as and when I listen to the podcast.